Tue 30 Oct 2007
I’m not a follower of Dave Ramsey, but having read a lot of personal finance sites and blogs, I’ve come across his teachings and his books more than a few times. I applaud his efforts, and his success at helping thousand of individuals climb out of debt. That said, I don’t think his way is the only way. While I probably agree more than I disagree with Mr. Ramsey, his draconian attitude towards all types debt instruments is not for me.. I have over a dozen credit cards, but I don’t carry a balance. I have a mortgage, but it’s at a great fixed rate with more than manageable payments. I think like anything else borrowing money is just another tool. It’s not evil or bad in itself. I have no great love for many of the tactics that credit card companies employ, but I don’t believe them to be any more evil than many other companies. Personally I prefer the credit card companies over cable providers any day as there is more competition. Credit card companies offer a service and are trying to make money like any other business. Like any profit driven business, credit card companies are trying to keep customers and extract as much out of them either through interest payments or transaction charges (billed to the retailers). As long as there are number of credit card companies competing for customers, I’m generally OK with their business model.
Dave Ramsey, on the other hand, hates credit card companies, and all forms of debt with a passion. I’ve actually never read any of his books, or listened to his show. Most of what I know about him comes from post by other personal finance bloggers, and comments from other personal finance blog readers. While I think that most people who look to Dave Ramsey as a personal finance guru are more than reasonable, I have found a minority of his followers incredibly dogmatic in their approach to personal finances. Given that I’m not following his way and I have very strong moderate tendencies (I have a hard time accepting any one answer without also acknowledging some reason in the counter position), I raise an eyebrow when I see people espousing Dave’s way is the only way.
From what I understand of Dave Ramsey, his basic pitch is that all debt is bad debt. Don’t use credit cards. Don’t have a mortgage. I’m not a fan of debt either, but I don’t think all debt is bad debt. When it comes to actually down to paying debt, he pushes the “debt snowball” - pay down the smallest loan, and then move to next larger one once that’s been paid. Rationally speaking paying down the smallest debt doesn’t make sense, paying the highest interest loan does. However, I think from a purely psychological perspective Dave’s advice is good. People often need to feel like they’re meeting goals.
Again since I’ve never listened to his show or read his books, what little I know that comes from him directly is from his website. While I don’t agree with him 100% as I wouldn’t usually expect to agree with anyone 100%, I think his arguments are well constructed and don’t strike me as particularly dogmatic. However, I also know that Dave Ramsey has a strong reputation as a powerful speaker who draws on his own Christianity to illustrate points. I imagine some of his force is lost when his words are translated to text on a page. I guess the broader question is not why followers of Dave Ramsey’s are so dogmatic as much as why some followers of any expert/guru feel the need to disparage and completely discount any conflicting view. Personal finances can be complicated. I readily acknowledge much of it is behavioral and psychological rather than mathematical and rational. Exactly because of the large psychological component, I believe there are many different “right” answers.
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October 30th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
When I started out, I used Dave’s Baby Steps… I still don’t use credit cards or borrow money - I wouldn’t consider myself a “follower” but I do like his show and his books. Some people consider his ideas to be too ‘basic’ - but I find that most regular folks need for things to be explained in simple, down-to-earth terms. I don’t consider Dave to be a ‘guru’ - I just think he’s a dude who has some strong opinions. Personally, I’ve modified a few of his baby steps (investing more than 15%, not cutting up credit cards) but for the most part, I think he’s pretty “spot on”…
NCN
October 30th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
I am using Dave Ramsey’s baby steps right now, and personally agree with his philospohy that credit card companies are bad. I’ve played with that kind of fire before, and been burnt by it too.
Basically, the Dave Ramsey program is to debt what Alcoholics Annonymous is to alcoholism. No one would ever think to suggest to a recovering alcoholic that they should have a beer or two on the weekend…so why does anyone think it is okay to tell a person who has gotten into trouble with debt that it’s okay to own credit cards? Sure, millions of people every day have just one beer (or glass of wine) and that’s all…but to an alcoholic it’s a whole ‘nother story. Same thing applies here.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
655 words about a guy when you’ve never listened to his show or read his book(s). Surely it’s your right to write about anything you like, but it does strike me as kind of odd.
If you’d like to brush up on your subject matter, check out his book at the library. While it’s true that Dave will never advise someone to go into debt for anything, he does say that he realizes it’s hard to convince people to do the 100% down plan on a house, so he suggests a 15-year mortgage with at least a 10-20% down payment for those of us who can’t wait to pay cash.
To my knowledge (and I do work for the guy), Dave has never said that mortgages or credit cards are evil.
Now if you’ll pardon me, I have to go and write a blog post about being a triathlete or a jet pilot or something like that.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Debt Free Revolution, I would be hard pressed to agree with you more. I completely agree that someone who has a problem with debt instruments should stay away from them just as an alcoholic needs to stay away from a drink. But I think we agree that not everyone is an alcoholic, nor does everyone have a problem with borrowing money.
Chris, I don’t mean to imply here that I know everything (or very much at all) about your boss. I surely don’t, but just that sometimes from what I can gather on different personal finance blogs that avid followers of Dave (or any other number of experts) are sometimes a bit dogmatic about their views. This post is more about that than anything else.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Dong, no not everyone has a problem with debt, but those of us who are going to be the most strident are the ones who have had issues. Just like some of the most annoying people when it comes to smoking are EX-smokers
Just to expand the metaphor a bit.
October 31st, 2007 at 8:00 am
This is nothing new…I’m reading a book from the 1960s that discusses these exact issues. Where Dave says, “Debt is dumb,” this author says, with debt and credit, “…your future is pinned to the salary you have yet to make.”
October 31st, 2007 at 11:37 am
I think Ramsey says many things just to say them. Not all debt is bad debt. He’s a simple instigator much of the time, in my opinion.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Yes, from what I can tell he’s just as dogmatic. Not always in a bad way, sometimes a bit strident, though.
I think his baby steps plan is good. I think his message is also good. I don’t think they’re perfect and am not a dogmatic follower. But I tend to head in the same direction.
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Some of Ramseys followers will attack anyone who even mentions bankruptcy. I know that from experience.
Abe Lincoln, Milton Hershey, Henry Ford, Walt Disney, and even Dave Ramsey all filed bankruptcy. In fact Abe Lincoln filed twice as did Henry Ford. There are many others like Donald Trump and the author of Rich Dad Poor Dad and one of the authors of the Chicken Soul For The Soul line of books that filed bankruptcy.
The followers of Ramsey seem to think that everyone can get out of debt by following Ramseys plan. Sometimes the fresh start of bankruptcy is what some of them need. I think some who follow his plan are putting off the inevitible and really need to consider bankruptcy to get back on the right track.
Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Warren says if you can’t pay your bills in a timely manner to consider bankruptcy. It’s good advice. You MUST put yourself and your family first. Bankruptcy is NOT the end of the world. People recover and once they are back on their feet they can repay thier creditors if they choose, but can choose to elimate all the loan shark interest and outrageous fees that the CC/banking industry has piled on.
I am sure my post will get the Ramsey fans all up in arms.
Read books and articles by Elizabeth Warren ! She has common sense and doesn’t lay a guilt trip on anyone who is down and out!
BTW, Ramsey may hate and rail against the CC industry, but he faithfully pays his merchant fees to Visa and Master Card so he can sell his products.
Since VISA MC won’t let him only accept debit cards, one can purchase his products with a credit card if they want to. He states on his website that the debit card transaction won’t go through unless you have the cash in the bank. That is so NOT TRUE! Banks are making BIG $$$$ in overdraft fees because they are allowing transactions to go through.
Ramsey talks about using debit cards, but check out what Mary Hunt of Debt Proiof Living has to say about debit cards. This financial expert won’t even use one!
If Ramsey was REALLY serious about his distain for the CC industry he would only accept checks and money orders for his products. The US POSTAL SERVICE IS STILL IN OPERATION! He could even reduce the price of his merchandise if he eliminated the MERCHANTS FEE!
Of course Ramsey is not going to do this. He is all about big business and he wants his money as easily as he can get it. So much for this old fashioned, homey type of guy. He’s a hypocrite!
Don’t be a sucker and purchase his stuff. If you want to read his books, get them from the library! Who needs “designer” envelopes to carry there cash in? Why are people wasting money on silly bumper stickers to promote him? He should be giving them away for the free advertising he is getting. He tells his audience not to spend money foolishly, yet offers some very foolish products to them! Ridiclous!